Consumer Connection

Behind the Scam: Insights from OCP Investigators

• Michelle Escobar • Season 1 • Episode 10

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Scams may evolve, but the tactics of urgency, building trust, and emotional manipulation remain the same. In this episode of Consumer Connection, host and OCP Investigator Michelle Escobar is joined by fellow Investigator Lorena Bailey to reflect on how consumer protection and fraud have evolved over the years, the real cases that still stick with them, and why education is the most powerful tool for prevention. Tune in to hear firsthand stories from the front lines, the red flags investigators see most often, and practical advice to help you spot a scam before money is lost. 

Have a question or suggestion for a future episode? Send an email to consumerconnection@montgomerycountymd.gov.

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to Consumer Connection, a podcast brought to you by the Montgomery County Office of Consumer Protection. I'm your host, Michelle Escobar. And today I am joined not only by a colleague, but by a very good friend, OCP investigator Lorena Bailey. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me today. I'm really excited about this conversation. I don't think we've ever had a conversation like this. So we've had a lot of talks, but not one like this. Lorena and I, we met 11 years ago when I first started at OCP. Now, how long have you been with OCP?

SPEAKER_01:

Since 2006.

SPEAKER_02:

So we have seen not only built a good friendship, but we've also seen the office evolve and the scams as well. So today we are reflecting on how consumer protection has changed, cases that have stuck with us. And I want us to give one piece of advice to anyone, what we would get advice that we would give to anyone who is unsure if they're being scammed. Lorena, when I started at um as an investigator, of course I'm a home improvement investigator, and I started at MHIC. And the scams, like the big deal was unlicensed contractors going door to door, selling uh home improvement, taking deposits, and not fulfilling the work. So today, scams have evolved. Uh, you've got scammers wait work uh waiting for you, like on the other side of, let's say, marketplace, and um they take you over to WhatsApp and they are so convincing to people that people will zelle or cash app their deposits and still not get the work done. They don't even have to show their faces anymore. They don't even have to show their faces anymore. Um, what what have you seen that, you know, I don't know, that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01:

Um many things have stayed the same. We see the same scams to this day. We still see lottery scams, we still see the door-to-door that you mentioned, um, we see imposter scams a lot. What's changed though is that they've gotten very good at what they do. Yeah. Um, and so whereas we saw a lot of door-to-door scams, now we see a lot of internet sales, which is the Facebook marketplace that you mentioned. It can be eBay. Um, a few years ago, of course, a lot of Craigslist scams. Um, now you see the online car buying. And these are services that are useful and it's beneficial to the consumer sometimes. You can get a really good deal online. The problem is that you don't know who is on the other end. And so it's very easy, as you say, they don't even have to show their face, but people trust in the systems and they will send their hard-earned money. If you're buying a car online, that's a pretty big purchase. And if you're sending money to someone that you don't know, that's a red flag.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

The form of payment that they request is also a red flag. If they're not accepting credit cards but want you to Cash App, they want you to sell wire transfers. Once those funds leave your account, they're gone. And that's what they count on.

SPEAKER_02:

The the way that they are able to connect, these scammers, the way that they're able to connect with people, like that emotional manipulation, I find has has is unbelievable at this point. Like they just they're experts at um creating urgency, experts at creating that trust, that connection with people.

SPEAKER_01:

And this is all done over online. Right. And that's where um you, if we want to talk about what's new, AI is probably one of the most dangerous things from a scam perspective. As you said, their websites, the websites that they create now look real. They can mimic your face, they can use your voice or a loved one's voice to urge you to send money. It could be as simple as I was in an accident and I need money to pay for the toe of my car. Or it could be far more expensive. I'm overseas, I've had all my belongings stolen. I need money. And that would be a large amount of money that you would have to send to someone. And so AI can not only mimic your voice, but they can even generate video. You know, we're very quick to post on social media. Yeah, all they have to do is grab those images and then use it, and they can even video call you when you think you're speaking to a friend or a family member.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, that's true. And so so then we've had to evolve as well as investigators. We've had to try investigators and advocates because that's, you know, that's what we are. And so now we have to identify these patterns. We have to be able to help and educate people and stay one step ahead. So we've had to evolve with them. We've had to become proactive. Um, tell me about like the type of investigations that that that you do that in in the office, because I know you've had to stay one step ahead for sure with the type of investigations that you perform.

SPEAKER_01:

As a bilingual investigator, I actually see everything. Um, because if they need Spanish, a Spanish-speaking investigator, then there's a good possibility I'll get the case. We do have other Spanish-speaking staff. Um and so I have seen, I see retail cases, you know, which involves return policies, things of that nature, damaged goods. Uh, I've seen auto service cases. Um, I do get all of the scam-related cases, which is why this is a very good topic for me. But the bad part for that is many times the scammers are out of state, even out of the country, which makes it very, very difficult to recover funds. Um, and so that's so you mentioned education, and education is key for that type of case. We want to get you before you've made the decision to warse money to someone that you don't know. And so the office is um pursuing new and better ways to reach out to consumers because that's the only way to combat scams is by way of education.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. Is there a particular case that has stayed with you this year? Um, I definitely have one that I want to talk about, but is there a particular case that has stayed with you this year?

SPEAKER_01:

Unfortunately, um there is, and I say unfortunately because it is a scam-related case, and we had a consumer who received a telephone call from someone claiming to know them from elementary school. And when she first received the call, she was suspicious and hung up the phone. They called again, and this time they entrusted her with their user ID and password to a bogus app that he was uh perpetuating an investment scam. And so he allowed her to sign into his account so that she could see his earnings, and she was enticed. And because he trusted her with his information that we say you never give out, yeah, she in turn trusted him. And she ended up liquidating her retirement plan. She borrowed from friends and family. Wow. She took out loans and used credit cards. Oh my god. So her losses were very high. I I will point out that there were a lot of red flags along the way. But as we said earlier, they're very good at convincing you. So some of the red flags were she was dealing with a company, but sending payments to individuals. Different, a lot of different individuals. The second one is that she was sending money overseas. And one of the biggest is that once her bank stopped her from making transfers, they instructed her to drive two hours to go to a travel agency to give them cash to then wire out. So there are a lot of steps along the way, but they're so good at convincing you. Yeah. And then they do give you rewards as you go because you're not going to keep giving more money if you don't see anything in return. So at the beginning, they give you money. They say, Oh, look, your investment has grown. And they send you a bit here, a bit there, stringing you all along until they've tapped you out. Yeah. And so it's a bad case, but those really stick with me because at the end of the day, it's extremely difficult to recover that money.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, yeah, if if you recover it at all, right? I mean, wow, that's that's um, that's unbelievable and horrible. Um for me, it for me this year was um this uh young uh consumer in her 20s. She um had recently lost her father and she used part of her inheritance to renovate um her kitchen for her and her mom. And um she had entered into a contract with a big box store, which usually, you know, you're you trust these stores. And you entered, she entered into the contract in the store. And um, the complaint, of course, my usually my complaints um are centered around, you know, uh poor workmanship, unfinished work, where ultimately I had to um we went back and forth trying to resolve the case, but ultimately it we had to send it to the Maryland Home Improvement Commission. Now, the reason that this case uh stuck with me is because the consumers are now having to um navigate contracts in a digital world. Like contracts have changed. And it doesn't matter if you're in your 20s, in your 80s, you have to navigate a different um era now in a digital era. And so that's one thing why it stuck with me. Um, and then another thing is read and reread your contracts, especially during the rescission period. Um, if contracts are signed in the store, that door-to-door sales doesn't um apply. It highlighted for me sometimes, um, and not only in this case, but in many cases, how uh trust may be misplaced in these big box stores. Um, they people think that it's the stores that are doing the job. And no, a lot of times it's the subcontractors that are doing these jobs. And then finally, using a licensed contractor. Licensing provides an extra layer of protection. When OCP may not be able to resolve the case, um, these state agencies, like MHIC, is a critical backup for consumers. So, you know, that that's the one that stuck with me just personally. But there's another one that that really has stuck with me. Um, and I think with both of us, I remember what, like just two months ago or so, um, we had a uh gentleman come into the office, 72 years old, suffers from Parkinson's and other neurological uh conditions. Um, and he was um shaken and and confused. But one thing, not not not so confused that he didn't know that we, that he shouldn't come to our office for some help. Um, he was targeted by a scammer in a store. And this scammer convinced him that he was an employee at the uh Chamber of Commerce and that earned the gentleman's trust and what convinced him that he was uh helping in an investigation and was so convincing that he was instructed because he was helping in this investigation to wire$80,000. Now, the bank, his bank blocked that transaction. But the scammer found out that what the what the real uh balance was in his account because he had given him remote access to his phone. And he went and took$220,000 out of his account and opened up a new account. That's when he came in. And I knew that that was serious and that I had to get the police had to be involved, but also you had to be involved. And so I and I how did that make you feel? What what I want to talk about that case. Um, tell me about you what that what that made you feel, what that was like for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Um the first thing is that my heart dropped when he told us the amount in his account. And at that point, we did not know whether the money was still sitting in his account. Yeah. And luckily, because of his condition, he said, his username was off by one character. But for that one character, they would have wiped out his account. Yeah. And so, as all our consumers are, you know, very kind um gentlemen, and you don't want to see anyone have a loss like that. Yeah. At that point, that is his nest egg. And so we did call in Montgomery County police, and they opened up a case right away, and they have departments that are dedicated to this type of event. Now, this gentleman um clearly had difficulty, but he was also very aware of when his um prime time was, and I think that's what led him to our office. Um, but because we did not know the status of the account, we actually helped him freeze and subsequently close the account. Luckily, and that took us actually going to the bank, and luckily the funds were still there, and the second bank froze the account and locked it down from any online access. Um, we also helped make contact with a relative that the consumer identified as a trusted individual, and we gave him some information and advice on what next steps were for his brother and how to help him in the future. Um, because it takes a community, it takes your you know, your community to be able to uh stop these crimes from happening, especially when we're dealing with vulnerable adults.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. I always say you see something, say something, because it does. And and I think that's one way that um I think even it's always been this way, but even more now that consumer protection it takes it takes the village, it takes us all. Um, because it the scams move so quickly, it evolves so quickly that we have to as consumers, as advocates, as investigators, as everyone, we have to um look out for each other because that's that's a way that we help stop things escalating, because these things escalate very quickly. These these scammers have a way of creating this urgency. Um people and especially even now when people are are are desperate for you know um to for the financially and and just they know where to hit you. These scammers know exactly where, how to say things and and and and how to target and get the information that they need, whether it's your information online or whether they're talking to you on the phone, they know how to how to take that one thing that you said and create it and and connect with you.

SPEAKER_01:

One thing I'd like to add is victims are often reluctant to ask for help. Yeah. And that's why what you said is very important. We have to pay attention to our friends and relatives. Uh, I would recommend that processes be put in place before someone becomes more vulnerable. Um there are steps that you can take. Utility companies now have communication options where if you're late on a bill, which might be the first sign of a problem, a third party can be notified. Of course, you always want to select people who are trusted, but embarrassment and shame will cause a person to try to hide the information. Absolutely. And they won't ask for help. And that's why we have to be vigilant, not only for ourselves, but those around us. And this also reminds me when you say it takes a village, quite a few years ago we had a case where a person was contacted by phone and they were told it was an IRS imposter scam. And even though you pay your taxes, you may, if someone is claiming you owe money and we're going to come and arrest you, you may think you made a mistake. Yeah. And of course, the right response is to hang up and find the correct number for the IRS and call them. But as you say, they're very good at convincing you and they instruct you to stay on the line.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And this individual went to his local supermarket and started purchasing prepaid visa, prepaid gift cards, as he was instructed to. And they're still on the phone. And the cashier noticed his uh anxiety. She noticed the unusual purchase that was being made, and she actually stopped the scam. And so that is someone who, as you said, if you see something, say something. That's right. And the worst that can happen to you as an outsider is they won't be interested in your help. Yeah. But at least you've tried. And and this cashier, and we we commended her. Um, this cashier actually stopped the scam. And that's a very important example, also. All of us can fall victim. Absolutely. This was an educated, relatively young individual. It's not just, you know, vulnerable adults, it's not just seniors. Uh each and every one of us can fall victim to a scam.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. If you could give just one piece of advice to someone who's unsure whether they're being scammed, what would be your golden rule?

SPEAKER_01:

Um about two or so years ago, I would have said trust your instincts. We've and and sometimes I still say that, but that's no longer true. Yeah. Because they've gotten so good at making it appear legitimate.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

With AI uh being able to use your voice, um, video even, I can no longer say trust your instincts. So my advice now is don't trust anything. Don't trust the internet searches, don't trust Google search. I had a consumer who was purchasing a car, was at the dealership, Googled her bank's name, and called. Well, she lost$2,000 by relying on a Google search. And not because Google's giving bad information, it's because scammers are paying to appear at the top.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And it was not, and this happens a lot. It happens with banks, it happens with travel agencies, um, travel services. You think you're calling the place that has your reservation, and you're not. And so they can go in and do all types of things, and you end up paying more money. You know, a twist on that was um, oh, your reservation is on sale now. It's$5,000. We'll save you$3,000. So we'll charge$5,000 and then we'll cancel the other one. They got them.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and so now my advice is don't trust anything. If you need to find a phone number for a provider, be it a bank, a utility, look on your statement. If you need your bank's telephone number, look on the back of your bank card or credit card. Use your existing information to contact your bank, utility company, credit card company. You, you, we always have some communication that we can go to and look for the information. Yeah. Um, and so that's becoming more and more important because those searches can bring up bogus telephone numbers.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that that's excellent. That's so true. That's so true. Don't believe anything. Yeah, that's what it is. Don't trust anything. Don't trust anything.

SPEAKER_01:

And in our line of work, yeah, it's really difficult for me to conduct my personal business knowing what I know. Absolutely. You know, I'm always, well, when they send you codes, you're on the phone with your bank, they send you a code to ask for the code, but it says not to give it to anyone. That's right. So I really struggle with that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, that's true. And I'm like that with contractors, where I need something done at my house, and I'm like, oh, I don't know. You know, I just it's it's so hard for me to to just trust someone to come and do work at my home. Um, I leave it to my husband because I, you know, and then of course I I look, I, I check things, but I really do leave it to him because I'm just, I don't, it's very hard for me to trust it. Um, so for me, it would be um the pre the high pressure sales. That's, you know, if you are, if you are feeling like you have to make that decision right now, especially with home repairs, it's for me, it's pause. Don't make any commitments under pressure. Don't make any commitments when you're feeling like, oh, well, you know, if it's not an emergency, get that second opinion, get that third opinion. Um, urgency is a red flag for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

That brings up a point. Um, a lot of people think, oh, I will sign. It's a door-to-door. Um, I have I can cancel in three days or five days. Um, first of all, not every contract can be canceled. Right. And the second thing that I tell consumers is life happens. If you're not committed to this contract, you don't know what can happen the next day that can put you out of commission and you won't be able to cancel.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

So you're stuck. Life happens. Do not sign unless you're absolutely sure. Yes. Because we can't rely on those grace periods to bail us out. What happens if you become sick the next day? Yeah. Um, so that's just a word of warning that I give to consumers who are considering those types of contracts.

SPEAKER_02:

That is so true. Have you ever been scammed?

SPEAKER_01:

No. Fortunately not. I'm the person who reads their contract from beginning to end. From what you just said, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

I know. I knew you wouldn't be the one to be scammed. Have I ever been scammed? It's about time to come clean. Um, did you want to say anything about that beforehand?

SPEAKER_01:

No, but I could be, which is why I'm so careful. Yeah. I don't anyone can be scammed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Anyone. And so I don't sit here thinking, no, but fortunately, no, no. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's time for your friend to come clean. That's something I've never told you. Like my family knows, but like none of my friends know. Not soon after COVID. I went to the phone, the the uh cell phone place and store and bought an iPhone. All right. So I bought the iPhone, had it delivered to my house. So not long after it arrived, Lorena. I mean, like it wasn't even, it was still sealed in the box. Not long after it arrived. Still sealed in the box, I get a call that where I'm not, I wasn't up to, you know, up to date with like, man, like how are they they say they were from the phone company and something was wrong with the phone, that it needed that some type of update. I believed it. I said, Oh, okay, you know, and plus it was still in the box. I said, okay, well, let me just get this over with and send it back. I did not even think about, you know, pausing and asking questions. Um, you know, the seeing if the phone number matched the company, even the the label that was emailed to me. I didn't look to see what the address was. I didn't, I didn't pick up on any of the things I should have picked up on. I didn't do it. I I said, well, let me go ahead and try to be efficient. Let me go ahead and get this uh cell phone off to UPS and send it back. But it was something that just like almost immediately after I sent it, I said, you know, something doesn't feel right. And then I checked all those things. And even trying to get it back, I couldn't because they had that package was technically their package because they paid for the postage. So I couldn't get it back. It was their package. I think I just finished paying for the scammer cell phone number, maybe not too long ago. But that's the thing. That's something it really, you know. I tell you, because of the field that I work in, of course, I'm I work consumer protection. I felt so embarrassed that I have I'm just coming clean today, with at least with my friends and the audience now. Um but it's it was tough and to carry that with me, you know, because when I had to like tell my husband, my son, my brother and sister, it's I'm like, wow, like I can't believe this happened. So, you know, yes, it can happen to anyone. Anyone, it can happen to anyone, especially when the timing is right, when they're so convincing. And because for me, I feel like that timing was like it was on point. I where I was like, this makes sense. So um you're caught, I'm caught off guard. Um, the embarrassment is there. But as time has gone by, and as I have seen more cases, I've learned that shame doesn't help us grow, um, but reflection does, and that scams don't discriminate, and our best defense. Is awareness and and just to let people know, you know, like it can happen to anyone. Let's speak up and let's speak it loud so these scammers don't get away with it.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for sharing that. That must be a very difficult thing. And I think you're well, I know you're exactly right. It can happen to any of us. So I haven't yet been scammed, but I know, I know I can be. Um and you opening up is very important. And I always urge people to share your experience because you will help someone. You know, someone listening will keep that in the back of their mind when they get a similar call. And that type of example often leads me to wonder how how would they have known you had just gotten a phone? Exactly. And I think that some of these scams have an internal component, but it would it's virtually impossible to trace because there's so many points along from the time that you ordered the phone to the time it was delivered.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

It could have been the sales company, it could have been the transportation company, it could have been the delivery of it. We don't know. Exactly. Um, but I do think it takes courage to speak up, but you're doing a service. So think.

SPEAKER_02:

So as we wrap up, is there anything else that you wanted to share with us?

SPEAKER_01:

I think the the best advice that I can give is do your homework beforehand. Know who you're talking to. As you said, one question I wrote when you were talking is I wonder what the caller ID said on your phone. But that goes back to my advice now. Don't trust anything. Yeah. You know, our office phones were s were being used. They scammers were pretending to call from county government. And so me asking what was the caller ID is even useless. Yeah. Because they can make it seem, they can make it appear to be any company.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, that's true. Like the spoofing.

SPEAKER_01:

They spoofed it. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so these days, the best I can do is say don't trust anything. Don't trust the caller ID. Um, don't trust the person talking on the other. My actually, my best piece of advice is to hang up. And if you receive a call, hang up and call a known number and ask them the question. I is there something wrong with the phone I just received?

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Yes. Don't engage. Yes, don't engage. Don't engage. Because I think that's because sometimes we'll say, ask questions. But even then, right, exactly. Because they know what they're doing. They're like one step ahead of you. Right. You know? And so it's like just you know, okay, just don't engage.

SPEAKER_01:

And it can be legitimate. Right? It can be. Call you hang up and call. Look at your sales receipt and call them and find out. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Behind every case, every complaint, every scam, there's a person. Someone who trusted, someone who hoped, someone who wanted to do the right thing. Um, whether it's a daughter who's grieving and trying to renovate her family home, whether it's a senior navigating neurological conditions, or whether it's someone who uh works in the fields and got scammed, someone like me. No one is immune to um to a scam. So let us be reminded, I think, of community, the power of community, of education and compassion. At OCP, we don't just investigate. Um, we listen, we guide, and we stand by people when they need it most. So if you're ever unsure, pause, ask questions, reach out to us and know that you're not alone and that we're here to help. Thank you for joining us. And oh, by the way, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and keep an eye out for upcoming episodes where we'll continue to bring you important updates and insights on consumer protection. Have a topic in mind for a future episode or a question for our team? Drop us an email at consumerconnection at Montgomery CountyMD.gov. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and family and stay in the loop with OCP by searching the hashtag MCGOCP on social media. Remember, knowledge is key for safeguarding your consumer rights. Stay informed, stay protected, and stay connected. Until next time.

SPEAKER_00:

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